TIL that the Indian subcontinent used to be the largest economy of any region in the world between the 1st and 18th centuries
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_India
cross-posted from: https://lemmit.online/post/5962668
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The original was posted on /r/todayilearned by /u/kalni on 2025-05-31 20:36:01+00:00.
More people should learn about Seven Years War in Asia
What happened, India?
The Great Divergence. China was also up there alongside India for many centuries. Europe was a backwater.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/2000-years-economic-history-one-chart/
https://lemmy.today/pictrs/image/e89435dd-fa66-4eaa-bc9a-fb97c5053d77.jpeg
Note that the time axis on the chart above is not linear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Divergence
Excellent info and good reads, thank you.
Industrialization was a massive game changer for humanity, especially for the cultures that adopted it early.
Sure. I'll add one guess that I've had for a long time as to one substantial factor in what helped start things get going in Europe relative to East Asia: moveable type. That drastically brought down the cost of written works, which acted as an enabler for subsequent social and technological changes, and happened towards the beginning of that "early divergence" period.
Why didn't it take off in East Asia?
East Asia had had block printing, even moveable type, for a long time before Europe. However, it did not use alphabetic systems of writing, and if you have thousands of logograms, the kind of practical "I have a small number of bins of identical characters" thing doesn't work nearly as well.
https://ca.pbslearningmedia.org/resource/moveable-type-story-of-china/moveable-type-story-of-china/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movable_type
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_printing_in_East_Asia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printing_press#Gutenberg.27s_press
https://www.taiwan-panorama.com/Articles/Details?Guid=09433229-1971-44c8-a7fe-0193be415fbc&langId=3&CatId=11
So that would have been a technological window running from in the 1400s to something like the 1970s where it was cheaper to do production of written works in (alphabet-based) European languages than in (logogram-based) major East Asian languages.
EDIT: On another interesting note, the Soviets tried to promote an alphabet-based writing system for Chinese some time back.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Chinese
Absolutely, i believe you're correct. Excellent writeup!
Another factor would be higher population and the ability of that population to have time to think and work on ideas other than survival. Which i think, and could be wrong about but it seems right, would have started around the European Renaissance and really boomed during the industrial revolution. At least for western civilizations.
What about the Indian subcontinent? Aren't their alphabets also easily adaptable to moveable type?
Sure, it's not only Europe that used a alphabetic writing system; wouldn't have been purely determined by the writing system. Someone was going to be first, though. But I think that anyone using a logographic system with a huge number of logograms faced a substantial barrier with moveable type---they either had to recreate their system of writing or come up with a different system of inexpensive dissemination of information. East Asia had that barrier in front of it.
why should i believe any of this is important compared to the manifest looting of the americas
For better or for worse will be the big question, especially since it's a major driver of climate change which may result in our extinction. In any event the world has been set on this path by the West so we will have to see how it plays out.
200 years from now will be interesting. I think that's a good enough time away to really understand what we're going thru now, and have faced the consequences.
The hight of civilization, or the hubris?
Someone would've figured it out sooner or later, just happened to be Europe in our timeline
Perhaps, we often assume these transformations to be inevitable in hindsight, we as humans are biased to see things that way.
To me the chart makes little sense in that these nations do not exist nearly for that long so dividing these geographic spots by today‘s borders is arbitrary at best and deliberate framing at worst.
Huh, I thought China was always the bigger power. Interesting. But wasn't the Japanese economy at some point literally almost as big as the US one? That's not really true on the graph?
Colonization.
Outside Invasion and colonisation.
No one did not use their superiour guns and navy to totally not pillage the big economic powerhouses from 17th to 19th century. That totally never happened. /s
But for real.. I accidentally discovered the Empire podcast last year. First episode starts with a bang.. You guessed it East India Company. Such nice guys they were.
Yeah, extracting an estimated 64 Trillion(!!!) in wealth from the subcontinent probably had little effect, nothing to see here
Highly recommend the Empire podcast too
Fuck the British
Well, I am hoping the current generation of Europeans (yes and british) don't feel embarrassed at what their ancestors did, but actually learn from their terrible history. Even a simple apology will go a long way.
Also listening to empire history podcasts, nothing has actually changed, captialist vs the plebs is still on going to this day. [Points at everything]
Colonialism is not taught in Britain. So I don’t think they plan on anything good.
It isn't taught because they feel it was worth it and would still have an empire today if they could.
The West goes on and on about its moral superiority when the truth is its entire social structure is predicated on white supremacy, labour exploitation and the destruction of nature. Unfortunately the entire world will have to suffer for that, even if the benefits have only been experienced globally over the past few decades.
A lot of young white men in Western countries are turning to fascism because they feel that they've lost privilege relative to their fathers.
What does the future hold? Only time will tell. One thing we do know is that every superpower falls eventually.
I was recently at the Michelin tire museum in France and there were literally zero references to the history of rubber harvesting and the brutal colonialism that propped it up. Only rosy depictions of ingenious French inventors. It was disgusting.
I'm embarrassed.
As a Dane, I'm really fucking embarrassed about our ancestors contributions to the global slave trade.
I will also learn from their mistakes, and promise to never trade any slaves.
Reparations.
And it goes much much further. The name of the land is Bharat, but I've spent some 25-ish years not knowing that. It always brings me to tears when I think of how this land and people were and what wondrous place it could have been when I was born. But alas, there is so much to undo and overcome now to get even a glimpse of that
Isn't it wondrous today tho?
Yes, but "something still stands" does not equal "nothing has fallen". Not every Indian has access to a toilet that is flushed with water, there are houses built upon heaps of trash, kids who genuinely think taking some government job and then living off bribes is a good way to live, what has become of cast system and how care for women has been twisted into oppression - someone a little more knowledgeable can spend whole days just enumerating problems. And all this in a land where they had enlightened kings (in spiritual sense, as in "knowing how everything works") and also leathers and societies capable of lifetimes of dedicated work
Those problems were still present when they were one of the biggest generators of wealth in the world, no? I don't see your point
India is still extremely wealthy. You have some of the best food and land in the world. Your trains and internet infrastructure are better than most countries.
No, they were not:
- homes are on very recent trash, think plastic and such
- caste system used to mean "do what you are good at" which for most people is "what you learned from people around you". Now it is "do what you are allowed to do, or else"
- you know some temples ban women, especially on their period? It was done initially so that they don't catch unwanted influences, now it is "you are impure and unwanted here"
- some temples took generations to build and need certain things to be done in order to keep them functioning as intended. Now people who still have the knowledge have to first get the government to let them do what's needed
Besides all that, I am talking about wellbeing and the magnitude of people this land has produced. They were incredible, but many of them won't make it in current society
Economy of 1800s and economy of 2025 is not even the same thing. So what does this factoid even supposed to mean?